Larry O’Toole has run his company, Gentle Giants Moving Company, for more than 40 years. He’s determined to ensure that all immigrants have the same opportunities that he did to fully participate in the economy and build something that will endure. That’s why he’s joined a group that promotes state and federal policies that foster complete economic integration of foreign-born talent and sustained prosperity for everyone. Listen to our interview to discover how he overcame the challenges of culture shock and discovered his untraditional path into entrepreneurship.
Transcript
Denzil Mohammed: I’m Denzil Mohammed and this is JobMakers. JobMakers is a weekly podcast produced by Pioneer Institute, a think tank in Boston, and The Immigrant Learning Center, a not-for-profit that gives immigrants a voice. Every Thursday at noon I talk with risk takers, immigrants who create new jobs, products and services in Massachusetts and across the United States, building on the entrepreneurial spirit that led them to America in the first place. When we return we’ll meet this week’s immigrant entrepreneur.
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Denzil Mohammed: Every immigrant experiences some kind of shock when they move to the United States, no matter their skin color, language, or country of origin. And yet, despite this, they learn to adapt to new laws, new cultures, a new education system and eventually flourish. It takes a special kind of person to have the ability to do that. For Larry O’Toole, founder of the multi-state Gentle Giant Moving Company that started in 1980 right here in the Boston area, yanked from his life in Ireland with only a few weeks notice and plopped in Brookline, Massachusetts. the shock was almost overwhelming. So he understands that for any immigrant, especially those with language, skill and other barriers, the ability to thrive despite those barriers is special. That is why he’s part of the Massachusetts Business Immigration Coalition, a more than 60 member group that advocates for state and federal policies that foster complete economic integration of foreign-born talent and sustained prosperity for everyone, as we hear more about in this week’s JobMakers.
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Denzil Mohammed: You are a legend in the Boston business community for the [inaudible]. And you’ve been around here for the past 40 years with Gentle Giant Moving Company. Briefly tell us a little bit about your company and what you see as your vision going forward.
Larry O’Toole: Well, we’re a company that guarantees our work or your money back. And we want to give consistent service to people where we stand behind our work and if we make a mistake we make good on it. And we want to give value for money. And from … in a larger view of our company even though we’re a moving company moving people’s belongings, we don’t think of ourselves as a moving company. We think of ourselves as a people development company, ’cause we want people who come in our door to be learning how to be successful human beings. And in the moving environment it’s a great place to do that, because every day you’re working with different people. And the customers are often under stress. And some of them are really nice people and some of them aren’t, and some of them are simply under a lot of stress and are maybe behaving badly even though they’re not bad people. So if you can develop the skills to find the key to their heart to really make sure that they end up having a wonderful experience and end up delighted with your service, then you’ve developed a skill which is going to make you successful in life no matter what you do.
Denzil Mohammed: That’s such an interesting view of what people think to be such a straightforward kind of company, a moving company. You know, you just come in, you grab stuff, you put it in the truck, but it’s so much more than that. And I want to talk more about how you view your customers and your employees and how you develop them. What was it like when you first moved here? You were 15. You were plucked out of the place, the only place that you’d ever known. You didn’t have much of a language barrier, but I’m sure that other things surprised you, right?
Larry O’Toole: Yes, culturally. Well, of course I came from a monoculture, like everybody around me was a Catholic. And it was funny because there was a Jewish kid in my school named Zimmerman. But just to show you just how out of it I was I remember saying to him, Zimmerman, what part of Ireland does that name come from? Of course he probably thought I was trying to make fun of him, but I honestly had no idea. So I came from that and I came to the United States and I went to Brookline High School. And I went from a culture where in Ireland kids went to school and they had fun and they learned but nobody really thought about what they were going to do until they saw what their results were on their final exams. You waited, and if your scores were high enough on the leaving certificate then you might say, “Oh, wow, I can go to medical school, you know?” So it was like that. And I came over to America where there was these Jewish kids in Brookline and, of course, I didn’t know they were Jewish or anything. But they’re arguing about whether they’d make more money as an accountant or an attorney down the road, that they were already career focused, but of course that’s Brookline. It’s a little different than a lot of places. But it was a definite culture shock. And then of course it just so happens that in Brookline it was a lot of really brainy, highly accomplished Jewish kids. And the Irish kids were all from a place called Whiskey Point. Their fathers were the police and firemen and janitors and stuff. And they were all sort of relegated to the lower levels in each class, and they’d be mainly football and baseball players who … The baseball in particular, they were, they would hope to get into some kind of … be picked by some baseball team. So it was all about sports for them.
Denzil Mohammed: So you were sort of told what field to go into, engineering, so you’re good at math and you do engineering.
Larry O’Toole: Right, because I was good at math.
Denzil Mohammed: But where was your heart at that time?
Larry O’Toole: I was probably fairly confused to be honest. I mean in hindsight I realized that I would have loved to have gotten into the arts, film or theater, but I didn’t have the confidence to follow into that. But engineering it was. That’s what I went for.
Denzil Mohammed: So a lot of strange turns in your life. A lot of surprising things are happening, including something in 1980 where you decided to start a moving business.
Larry O’Toole: Right.
Denzil Mohammed: How did that come about and what was it like not having a business background and trying to start a business in America.
Larry O’Toole: Well, I think it came from spending a number of years working in the corporate environment. I decided that I wanted … the only way I was going to be able to control my destiny was to start my own business because you don’t want to have a great job and wake up one morning and find out that it’s become a nightmare, and it’s all in the hands of people that are way above you, that you don’t know what the hell is going on and decisions are being made that are absolutely mad, and you have to go along with them. I know you can find good places, but I didn’t want to leave it to chance. I said, “I want to start my own business.” And a friend of mine back in Boston was developing a product and I decided that I would team up with him and we would start our own manufacturing business. But that doesn’t happen overnight and so I didn’t want to just live off my savings. I wanted to get enough work to pay for my living expenses. I found an inexpensive place to live and I started doing little odd jobs here and there in order to pay the rent while we were getting our manufacturing business off the ground. But one of those things was moving. I started doing moving. Actually it was my roommate, his idea. He had said to me, “You know you should do moving because you can be flexible. You need only book work when you want to do it.” But I wasn’t that interested. And then one day there was a party. And I was at this party and I was … All of a sudden his girlfriend came over to me and asked me to dance. So I said, “Okay.” So I’m out dancing with his girlfriend and I said to her, ‘How come you’re dancing with me? How come you’re not dancing with Hugh?” And she said, “I love to dance and you can’t get him on a dance floor.” But I said, “Well, I’ll get him out here dancing with you.” I walked over. He was sitting on a chair talking to somebody. I came up behind him. And I was really in shape and strong at the time, so I just picked him up out of the chair. And I just carried him out onto the dance floor and I started to swing him in both directions. His legs were going up towards the ceiling on both sides, you see. And everyone started this slow clap and he was sort of a good sport and he kind of did these little marionette things, but he was out there. And so the next day we’re at breakfast and he says to me, “You know it wasn’t just that you picked me up, it’s that it was comfortable. It was like I was parasailing, you know that was. I don’t know how you did it, but I …it didn’t feel awkward.” And he said, “You know who you are?” He said, “You’re the gentle giant. That’s the name of your moving company.” And I said, “Nah, forget about it, that’s not happening.” So he literally, without telling me, he called up, now I don’t know if it was the Boston Phoenix or the Real Paper. I can’t remember. But he called up and he bought an ad that just said Gentle Giant with our phone number and he put it in the moving section. And somebody called. And all of a sudden he hands me the phone and he says, “It’s for you.” And I said, “Who is it?” He said, “It’s your first customer for your moving company, you know, Gentle Giant. Remember I told you?” I said, “What are you talking about? I don’t even have a truck.” And he said, “You can borrow my van.” And I said, “Well, I don’t know what to charge.” And he said, “Why don’t you charge 13 bucks an hour and then you can give me three for the van?” So next thing you know I’m talking to this young woman, arranged to meet her on a Saturday to move her. And I ended up moving her. Anyway, that was my first customer and I’ve moved her seven times. And the last time was 2012 and the bill was $12,500. So before you know it, I’m doing these little moving jobs and it was only supposed to be a sideline to get a little cash. But what I found out more and more was people did not act like I had moved them. They acted like as if I had saved their child from drowning, and I’m not exaggerating. People were so appreciative it was almost ridiculous or comical, like all I did was move their crap from A to B and they’re acting like, “Oooo, thanks, you saved my life.” Well, what I came to realize was the main reason people were so thrilled was because they had had bad experiences with movers in the past and now they were getting somebody that was giving it their heart and soul and really committed to doing an absolutely great job and keeping them happy while I was doing it, like having fun with them, having jokes and fun, a good time. And lo and behold they’re moved, and there’s no stress and everything is exactly where it should be. And I’ve made some really good suggestions. I started interviewing owners of moving companies just to get some insight. And they were all nice people. But they all had the same complaint, that they couldn’t find good help. And one thing I was sure of, and that was that I could find good people. So I decided that, You know what? I’m going to start a moving company. And you know what? I’m only going to hire really great people. And I’ll see where that brings me.
Denzil Mohammed: So 41 years later, you’re still going stronger than ever in a sense.
Larry O’Toole: Yes.
Denzil Mohammed: You’ve hired thousands of people over the years.
Larry O’Toole: Right.
Denzil Mohammed: In normal times you probably have a workforce of about 500.
Larry O’Toole: Right.
Denzil Mohammed: And they’re not only in the Boston area, they’re scattered across cities across the U.S.
Larry O’Toole: Right.
Denzil Mohammed: So Seattle, San Francisco.
Larry O’Toole: Right.
Denzil Mohammed: New York City, Washington, D.C. And you have many initiatives in your workplace to keep developing both physically and mentally. Your employees are running up and down the stairs of the stadium.
Larry O’Toole: Right.
Denzil Mohammed: And you have probably a hundred videos on YouTube showcasing this. What kind of activities do you do there and what is the purpose?
Larry O’Toole: Well, you want to help everybody to become self aware. And you want everybody to be secure in their identity because people have to be comfortable in their own skin so that they are open to feedback and don’t become defensive if they are receiving feedback. How do you give somebody feedback in a way that respects them but lets them … ‘Cause I mean most people don’t show up perfect, where they get feedback and they say, “Thank you, that was really helpful.” A lot of people, and the way our society is made, people are made to feel like they’re failures a lot and people are criticized. And you don’t know what kind of a home environment they’ve come out of, that’s another problem. People can invent … I mean a lot of parents are abusing their children without knowing it. They’re just giving ’em a hard time about everything and so people are so afraid of failure. They’re so afraid of making mistakes. And then when they do they feel like they’re embarrassin’. They feel like if … when in fact everybody should be comfortable that you can make a mistake and learn from it and help other people not repeat it. So a lot of this is very, it’s actually very difficult. You know, all kinds of human interaction … Because people are kind of wired to be a little bit dysfunctional. So how do you get people to be fine? Like somebody tells you that you’re not very good at something. That should be fine with you, because how are you expecting to be any better? I remember somebody asking me after working with me, “So what would you, what kind of grade would you give me for my work today?” And I said, “Well, you want the truth?” And he said, “Yeah, yeah, give me the truth. What would my grade be?” I said, “Well, it will be a D.” I said, Well … It looked like he was ready to start to cry. And I said, “Yeah, you’re a D, but you know something, you keep putting in the effort that you did today and you will be an A.” Don’t expect to walk into somethin’ and be an A on day one. It takes hard work and applying yourself seriously for a length of time before you can become a C and then a B and then an A. And if you wanna be an A, you’re goin’ to be an A.
Denzil Mohammed: You started expanding outside of Boston in the mid ’90s. Now you have locations across the U.S. How is, how have you been able to manage that growth?
Larry O’Toole: Well, for us, I mean every company is different, but for us the culture is important. And you need to have people running these other offices who are totally committed to your culture and who will only, will have the same approach to people and will hire the same kind of people and deliver the same thing to their customers. Now there are people who do it by just going into cities and putting ads in the wherever you put ads and finding people … opening for a manager of a whatever it is. And that’s so … you’re going to end up with a lot of inconsistencies. If it’s just McDonald’s then you can send everybody to McDonald’s University and it’s all hamburgers and you can get people to … everybody does the same. But with moving, it’s all about people and you can’t just turn them out like cookie cutters. You need to have people … and if you have people who understand the culture and they’re going to adhere to it then that’s what it takes.
Denzil Mohammed: Every year the moving business is not the same throughout the year. You have this big surge, especially in a place like Boston.
Larry O’Toole: Right.
Denzil Mohammed: August 31st when everyone’s moving.
Larry O’Toole: Right.
Denzil Mohammed: You don’t just get labor from here, you have to look outside of the U.S. in normal times, correct?
Larry O’Toole: Well, yes, I mean, that’s the way we did it for many years, but of course with Trump that got cut off and Biden hasn’t done much to improve that situation because the unions in this country, even though unions are necessary and they do a lot of good, they have this nonsensical idea that these workers take away American jobs. And, of course, Biden has put Marty Walsh in charge of the Department of Labor, which … I’m not quite sure what his qualifications are. I do know that Robert Reich was qualified. I mean, Marty Walsh, you worry about him because his only perspective is union. I mean, he’s lived and died union since the day he was born. So when you get people in the union saying that we’re not going to bring in any foreign workers until every American is hired and we have zero unemployment, you’re talking to an idiot. I mean, well, not an idiot, but somebody who doesn’t really understand the facts because the jobs we’re talking about here are seasonal jobs. And when you hire seasonally … Most Americans if they want a job they want it year round, to actually be a supervisor, to be put in charge of an $80,000 truck, quarter million on average value of a shipment and then you have to deal with supervising a crew of people some of whom may be less experienced than others. You need years of experience yourself. And an experienced seasonal worker, a highly competent, experienced seasonal worker who’s American doesn’t exist. Why would they want to stop working when it slows down? So we keep our American workers working year round. And bringing in foreign workers that have been coming in for many years gives you chance to bring in highly competent people who can supervise crews. So for everyone you bring in you can hire three, four, five Americans. So you can actually hire more people. Now we did bring in J-1 students as well, but the reason for that was that American students do tend to go back to college in August. So you have six more weeks of the busy season where you can have European students who are willing to work through those weeks before they go back to school in Europe.
Denzil Mohammed: And I know that you’re part of a coalition of business owners and advocates who are … would like state government to pursue sensible policies when it comes to immigrants, and also at the federal level. How has that been going?
Larry O’Toole: It’s very frustrating. It’s almost impossible. That is so frustrating ’cause so much needs to get done and undone from the last four years of horror that it’s frustrating right now for the people who are trying to accomplish something.
Denzil Mohammed: We need to remember that, first of all, it’s about lives. These are people we’re talking about. Immigrants are not just numbers. And secondly, they add to our economy. As you said, you are able to hire more Americans as a result. When certain immigrant heavy Industries grow satellite industries downstream industries expand.
Larry O’Toole: Right.
Denzil Mohammed: The economy is not a finite thing. I mean, it is a huge problem. And the Boston Business Journal recently published an editorial showing that Massachusetts did not lose congressional seats only because our immigrant population grew. And the immigrant share of the labor force in 1990 was 10 percent in Massachusetts, and now it’s 20.5 percent. I mean that certainly says something, that they are powering our economy.
Larry O’Toole: They’re necessary, yes.
Denzil Mohammed: Larry O’Toole, this is a fascinating conversation.
Larry O’Toole: Oh, thank you.
Denzil Mohammed: It has really been a pleasure talking to you and learning more about your journey, your business, your ethos in particular. So thank you for joining us on JobMakers.
Larry O’Toole: Oh, it was a real pleasure Thank you. It was great talking to you, thanks.
Denzil Mohammed: So happy that you joined us for this week’s inspiring story of another immigrant entrepreneur. If you know someone we should talk to, email Denzil, that’s d-e-n-z-i-l, at jobmakerspodcast.org. I’m Denzil Mohammed. Join us next Thursday at noon for another JobMakers podcast.